1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,160 Can you hear us well now? 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,000 Yes, is this Richard Chamber again? 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,000 Oh, this is Ray Bomber. 4 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,000 I'll give Richard back to you. 5 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:08,000 All right, thanks very much, Ray. 6 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:09,000 Okay. 7 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,000 Thank you. 8 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:11,000 Hello. 9 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:16,000 Yes, we're having a little difficulty with this line. 10 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,000 One of our guests here makes a suggestion. 11 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,000 I think he's being a little facetious, but I'm wondering what you thought about it. 12 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,000 Maybe the Darryl is trying to break the connection. 13 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:26,000 That's quite possible. 14 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,000 You really mean that, sir? 15 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:29,000 Oh, yes. 16 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,000 I see. 17 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:35,000 Mr. Shaver, I have with me tonight Ellery Lanier, who has been very interested in the Shaver 18 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:40,000 mysteries, and I also have with me tonight Bob Metler and Ben Isquith. 19 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:46,000 In about an hour from now, we're going to have Dominique Lucecce and Augie Roberts. 20 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Augie Roberts and Dominique Lucecce do a conversation with the Darryl. 21 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:59,000 Augie Roberts and Dominique Lucecce do a considerable amount of work for Ray Bomber, and they're 22 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:07,000 going to be here with us, but they won't be here in time to talk to you on the phone. 23 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:14,000 But at this point, I'm going to turn the phone over to Ellery Lanier, and I want him to talk 24 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:19,000 with you for a little while, and I would appreciate it very much, Richard, if you'll keep close 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:26,000 to the phone and speak up, project a little bit, because our listeners in 27 states are 26 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,000 very interested in hearing every word you have to say about the famous Shaver mysteries. 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,000 All right, sir? 28 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Yes. 29 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:35,000 Just a moment, please. 30 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Hello, Richard. 31 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000 I wanted to ask you something. 32 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:45,000 As I recall, one of your first modes of communication with these beings who live underground was 33 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:50,000 through a sound produced by the flame on your welding torch. 34 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,000 Do I remember that correctly? 35 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:54,000 Yes, it was. 36 00:01:54,000 --> 00:02:00,000 I attributed my sensitivity to seeing the welding gun I was using. 37 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,000 I see. 38 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,000 How did this come over? 39 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:09,000 Was it a sound that you could hear with your ears when the flame of the torch was in operation? 40 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,000 See, it's a magnetic gun with a powerful solenoid. 41 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,000 Yes. 42 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,000 When it pressed the trigger, I noticed when it pressed the trigger, I could hear voices 43 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,000 many in the distance. 44 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Yes. 45 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,000 And that sensitivity increased day by day. 46 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:32,000 I figured that the storm field was stripping the insulation from the nerves of my head. 47 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:33,000 I see. 48 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,000 Because I held it right close to my head. 49 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:42,000 And that's the way I think I became sensitive when the first began. 50 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,000 At that place. 51 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:49,000 Well, does that happen whenever you had the welding torch in operation and the flame was working? 52 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,000 At that time. 53 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:55,000 Was it possible for anyone else to hear a sound from the flame of your torch? 54 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:56,000 I never tried. 55 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,000 You never really knew if someone else heard that, but you know I didn't. 56 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:06,000 Well, I wanted to ask you several other things about the arrows. 57 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:13,000 As you said to John shortly, there are some that are good and some that are bad. 58 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,000 That's right. 59 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:20,000 So I was going to ask you whether they were basically nasty, but according to what you say, 60 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,000 they're equally good and bad. 61 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Yes, there is an inverted personality rather common down there and it's an old code. 62 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,000 The demon is called. 63 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,000 Yes. 64 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,000 They raise them that way. 65 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,000 I see. 66 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:42,000 Do you have any idea what the population quantity or the number of the population of the arrows 67 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,000 is at the present time? 68 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,000 It's not very many. 69 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,000 Something like 100,000 is the way I get it. 70 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,000 About 100,000. 71 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:56,000 And these underground sort of caverns or layer on layer that you described that are inhabited 72 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,000 by the arrows. 73 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,000 They concentrated in any particular areas under the earth. 74 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:08,000 Well, there is a pattern to them, but it's too complicated to go into. 75 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,000 They're practically worldwide. 76 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,000 Do they go under the oceans? 77 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,000 Some of them do. 78 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,000 Their passage is under the ocean yet. 79 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:22,000 I was very concerned about one thing I wanted to ask you, whether there are any caverns located 80 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,000 under the city of New York. 81 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,000 As far as I know there are. 82 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,000 Wherever the rock is old and solid. 83 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,000 Yes. 84 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,000 We'll find them. 85 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,000 Well, we have some very solid granite rock under the island of Manhattan that is made 86 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,000 as possible for these huge buildings to be built. 87 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,000 I could say that we're about 200 watts raised listening to you right now. 88 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Am I pardoned? 89 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:50,000 I could say that we're about 200 watts raised listening to you right now. 90 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,000 Yes. 91 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,000 All you mean the ones that are right in this area? 92 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,000 That's right. 93 00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:01,000 Well, do they ever, to your knowledge, come through under a place like ground central 94 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,000 station, for example, in these very deep underground passageways? 95 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,000 Yes, they have connections with the surface. 96 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,000 But they're very secret. 97 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,000 It's a very secret group, very exclusive group. 98 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,000 Yes. 99 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:19,000 Do you know whether they ever come out into the subway tunnels of the city? 100 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,000 I think so. 101 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,000 You do? 102 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,000 Has that happened recently, do you know? 103 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,000 All the time. 104 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,000 All the time? 105 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,000 They have never thought to supply food. 106 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,000 I don't follow you on that. 107 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,000 They must buy food. 108 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,000 Well, you mean they come up into the city to buy food? 109 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,000 That's right. 110 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:41,000 I see. 111 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,000 Do you mean they don't produce any of their food down below? 112 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,000 I didn't know that. 113 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,000 Oh, they don't produce a little in high-component, but not enough. 114 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,000 I see. 115 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:57,000 I wanted to ask you where their largest concentration was. 116 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,000 Is it here and under the United States? 117 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,000 Or are they the greatest amount of them, or are they equally spread? 118 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,000 Well, they're pretty thinly spread. 119 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:15,000 They keep a watch over every important center, mainly toward off any threat to their dominance. 120 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:22,000 You say that there were approximately about 100,000 of them at the present time? 121 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:23,000 That's right. 122 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:31,000 That would be under New York City, for example, would be a very small portion, a very small part of that 100,000. 123 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:37,000 In other words, we just have a local booth here, which we wouldn't have a large concentration here then. 124 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,000 Well, I would be surprised. 125 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,000 Can you tell us about that, or is this a secret? 126 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Well, no one meant to know too much about it. 127 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,000 It's a very complicated and deadly thing. 128 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,000 Yes. 129 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,000 You can know a little, but you can't know very much. 130 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,000 I want to ask you, are there any of them under Washington, D.C.? 131 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,000 All here. 132 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:07,000 Do they have to come up into the city and to Washington, D.C. to get food supplied to? 133 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,000 I wouldn't know. 134 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,000 You don't know about that. 135 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,000 I would say we're going in the port. 136 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:18,000 Can you tell me, Richard, about the heat underground? 137 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,000 Are they used to the high temperatures? 138 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,000 They're very low. 139 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,000 Pardon? 140 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,000 They're very low high temperatures. 141 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,000 So, they're very little high temperatures? 142 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,000 Right between 15 and 60. 143 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,000 So, that doesn't sound too bad. 144 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,000 Quite pardon. 145 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,000 And then I want to ask you about children. 146 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,000 Do they have children there now? 147 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,000 Well, very few. 148 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Some of them are brown on. 149 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,000 I just want to know, Richard? 150 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:48,000 Hello, Richard? 151 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,000 Hello. 152 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,000 This is Long John again. 153 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,000 Yes. 154 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:59,000 Some time ago, Richard Schaefer, and if I may take just a moment to tell our listeners in case they've joined us, 155 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:06,000 we're talking with Richard Schaefer of the famous Schaefer Mystery, and with Ray Palmer. 156 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:13,000 Ray Palmer is editor and publisher of Flying Saucers from Other Worlds and Search magazine. 157 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:19,000 And we're talking to these two gentlemen there out there in Amherst, Wisconsin. 158 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:24,000 We're here in the studios of W.O.R. in New York City. 159 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,000 And we're trying to get more information this morning. 160 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,000 This is the only way that we can get in touch with Richard Schaefer. 161 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,000 It's the first time that he has been heard over any radio station. 162 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:42,000 So this is really a first in radio, and if you've listened and you've heard us talk about the famous Schaefer Mysteries, 163 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,000 we're talking to the man who claims that he knows more about it, and he certainly should. 164 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:52,000 Whether you buy it or not, I do not know, but we're talking to the man now. 165 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:58,000 Richard, some time ago, I spoke to somebody on the party line on this program, 166 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,000 and they told us that there are three elevators. 167 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:13,000 One someplace in Bittown Manhattan, another one in Providence Road Island, and one in Chicago, Illinois. 168 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:21,000 They told us that these elevators are automatic elevators located in a part of house buildings. 169 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:32,000 The tenants of these buildings are not aware of the unusual ability of one of the elevators. 170 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,000 Now, let me try to describe it to you, sir. 171 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,000 I understand. 172 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,000 Well, you do know. 173 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,000 Well, I'd like to just tell our listeners to join us for the first time. 174 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,000 We are told that when you go into the lobby of these buildings, 175 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:53,000 that you press the button, and when the car arrives on the lobby floor, 176 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:00,000 if you go into the car alone, and you press the B button, which is for basement, 177 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:04,000 the car goes down to the basement, and the most doors open up, 178 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:10,000 and you find these furniture and washing machines or whatever equipment may be in that basement. 179 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:17,000 If you press the B button two additional times, most doors close, 180 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:24,000 and the elevator continues to go down into a shaft in one good community, 181 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:30,000 and I think it's in the city of Chicago, the elevator, the car itself, 182 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:40,000 goes over to the left of the shaft to a different shaft that continues down into the cavern where the Darrow is. 183 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,000 Is this true, sir? 184 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,000 I would say it was. 185 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,000 He would say it was. 186 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,000 That's right. 187 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:52,000 Well, when you make that statement, sir, you're not quite sure, though. 188 00:10:52,000 --> 00:11:00,000 Well, I wouldn't be exactly sure of the exact details, but I know that that's not the case. 189 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,000 I see. 190 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:06,000 Would this be dangerous for anybody to back up? 191 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,000 I think, pardon me, he would not come back up. 192 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,000 The people would not come back up? 193 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,000 That's right. 194 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,000 Why is that here? 195 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000 Secretly. 196 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,000 Secretly. 197 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,000 I see. 198 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Have you ever been to the cavern? 199 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,000 Yes. 200 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,000 How is it that you're back up there? 201 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,000 That's an accident. 202 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,000 That's an accident. 203 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,000 Mr. Shader, let me talk with Ray Tombre again for a couple of minutes, if you will, please. 204 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,000 Hello. 205 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,000 Hello, Ray? 206 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,000 Yes. 207 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:47,000 Ray, sometime ago, we had a young man on the program just about a year ago, 208 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,000 a young man who writes science fiction. 209 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:56,000 Yes, and he made the statement that he met you at a convention, 210 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,000 a science fiction writer's convention a few years back. 211 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,000 That is correct. 212 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,000 And you know who I'm referring to? 213 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,000 Yes, I do. 214 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,000 Carlos Ellis. 215 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,000 That's right. 216 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:11,000 He made the statement on the program here that you told him 217 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:23,000 that the Shader Industries wrong fiction is that you published them just to create good circulation for amazing stories. 218 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:29,000 Well, I think now that that demands an explanation which I think I can give you. 219 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,000 Well, would you try it, please? 220 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,000 When I went to that convention, I was very sick. 221 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,000 I was invited to the convention. 222 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,000 And made the trip and invited me here. 223 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:47,000 Now, when I got there, I expected to receive what I'd say a courier's reception. 224 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And instead, I met with a group which I believe was mostly linked with Mr. Ellis, 225 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,000 who had apparently decided that they were going to ban me. 226 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,000 I see. 227 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:07,000 Now, they kept asking questions which actually you can't answer without, 228 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,000 it's the sort of a question that do you self-beat your wife? 229 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,000 I don't quite understand. 230 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,000 So in the desperation finally when he confronted me in this elevator, 231 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:21,000 I said, well, what do you want me to answer to the question? 232 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,000 He said the truth. 233 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,000 I said, well, I've told you the truth. 234 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,000 And you haven't accepted it. 235 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,000 So my only alternative is to tell you what you want to hear. 236 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:37,000 This is entirely fiction and that it was done for the purpose of raising circulation. 237 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:43,000 Now, this was done in what you might say was anger. 238 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,000 It was done also as sarcasm. 239 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:55,000 And it was done to rid myself of this group which intended to follow me the whole convention. 240 00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:00,000 And apparently, we're having a great deal of fun out of bazuring me. 241 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:06,000 They had no intention of giving me a chance to get out of their stay on the thing. 242 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,000 That is the actual conditions. 243 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:16,000 In my statements to Mr. Ellis, I've had several run-ins with Mr. Ellis since. 244 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:21,000 And one of them came about as a result of his appearance on your program. 245 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:33,000 And I did at that time tell him that my statements to Ammonite Elevator were in the vein that which I just described to you. 246 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:38,000 I think it could easily understand it. 247 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:48,000 I don't believe that it is necessary to give an honest answer to a person who doesn't give you the courtesy 248 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,000 of the chance to give you an honest answer. 249 00:14:52,000 --> 00:15:03,000 Actually, I don't think that anybody would be against an editor trying to increase the circulation of a magazine. 250 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,000 Well, I want to clarify that too. 251 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:12,000 I wasn't hired by this Davis to get a lot of return. 252 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,000 I was hired to sell magazines. 253 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:22,000 And I realized from the very beginning that the Shaver Mystery was a thing that would sell magazines. 254 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,000 We had a circulation of around 50,000 when I took this thing over. 255 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:33,000 And it was 135,000 when I got hold of the Shaver Mystery. 256 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:41,000 And overnight we raised it 50,000 to 185,000, which is a sensational figure for a fiction magazine of that type. 257 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:45,000 Ray, was that accomplished in just one month? 258 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,000 That was accomplished in one month, the March 1945 issue. 259 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,000 March 45. 260 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,000 Was the circulation at that time about 50,000? 261 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,000 The circulation at that time was 135,000. 262 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:06,000 In other words, the month prior to that, it was around 50,000. 263 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,000 So in one month you jumped that amount of circulation? 264 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,000 No, and when I took it over in 38, it was 50,000. 265 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,000 I see. 266 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:20,000 And when I went in 1945, it was 135,000. 267 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:27,000 And in March, when we ran that first issue, it jumped to 185,000 and stayed there for four years. 268 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:33,000 Did you present the Shaver Mysteries as being true stories? 269 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Yes, I did. 270 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,000 Did you believe it at the time? 271 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,000 I did, yes. 272 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,000 Do you still believe that they're true stories? 273 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,000 I know it now. 274 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,000 You know it now? 275 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,000 Yes, I know it. 276 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,000 That's an interesting comment coming from you Ray Palmer. 277 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:50,000 Yes, it is. 278 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,000 A very interesting comment. 279 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:58,000 I could not make a lot of difference to my employers while I was working for them. 280 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:07,000 I wonder if you could give us a couple of reasons why you believe so firmly now that the Shaver Mysteries 281 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:12,000 are based on the fact that they are true. 282 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,000 Well, I can give you, I can start out with the initial reason. 283 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,000 I visited Mr. Shaver's Pennsylvania. 284 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000 I wanted to hear his voices and I did. 285 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,000 When was this here? 286 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,000 This was in 1950. 287 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,000 Well, yes, it was about 46, early 46. 288 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,000 About 46. 289 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,000 No, I like to take this step by step, Ray. 290 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:42,000 You tell me now that you visited Richard Shaver in Pennsylvania and you heard the voices. 291 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,000 That's right. 292 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,000 Where did this happen? 293 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:50,000 I don't mean what sound, but was this inside or outside Mr. Shaver's home? 294 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:51,000 It was inside his home. 295 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,000 What part of his home? 296 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:59,000 It was in a bedroom on the upper floor where I was placed to sleep. 297 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,000 You were against it, Mr. Shaver? 298 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,000 That's right. 299 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,000 And was Mr. Shaver in the room during the time you heard the voice? 300 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,000 He was in the adjoining bedroom and he was fast asleep. 301 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,000 Was this during the night or the day hours? 302 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,000 It was during the night. 303 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,000 It was about 2.30 in the morning. 304 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,000 I wonder if you could describe this to us what actually happened. 305 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,000 Yes, I can. 306 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,000 I went up to this bedroom and went to the garden to bed. 307 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:29,000 Now, in order to reach this bedroom, you have to pass through Mr. Shaver's bedroom. 308 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,000 There is no way out of that. 309 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,000 I don't accept through Mr. Shaver's bedroom. 310 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,000 Yes. 311 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,000 So once in there, I was in for good. 312 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:48,000 Well, Mr. Shaver went to bed immediately and apparently went to sleep and then he hit the pillow. 313 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:53,000 Now, Mr. Shaver remained downstairs. 314 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,000 I think feeding chickens is doing something anyway. 315 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,000 Cleaning up. 316 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,000 We've been having coffee. 317 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,000 And she was down there for around an hour before she came up. 318 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,000 Yes. 319 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:09,000 Now, almost immediately after Mr. Shaver went to sleep, I began hearing voices. 320 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,000 There were four or five voices. 321 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,000 And they all were the rape number. 322 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,000 Were they all different voices? 323 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:18,000 They were all different voices. 324 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Male or female voices? 325 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,000 They were male and female. 326 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,000 I think you can say that. 327 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,000 There was a male voice, a very deep, rough voice. 328 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,000 Yes. 329 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000 There was a female voice, I'd say, a sort of youngest woman. 330 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:32,000 Yes. 331 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,000 There was a child voice, which you might say four or five years old. 332 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:37,000 Yes. 333 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,000 And there was another man voice. 334 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:50,000 The subject of their conversation was very interesting because they were describing an event that had taken place that afternoon at four o'clock, around four miles away. 335 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:56,000 That is in a downward direction, four miles away from the Shader's home in Pennsylvania. 336 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,000 Four miles away and four miles down. 337 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:03,000 What do you mean by four miles away and four miles down? 338 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,000 Well, four miles horizontally and four miles vertically. 339 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,000 Four miles vertically? 340 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,000 That's right. 341 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,000 In other words, four miles below the surface of the earth. 342 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,000 Something happened that afternoon at four o'clock. 343 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,000 That's right. 344 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Can you tell us what they claim? 345 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,000 A woman was torn in four quarters. 346 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,000 A woman was torn in four quarters. 347 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,000 That is right. 348 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:30,000 These people were discussing it, felt that this was a terrible thing and should not happen. 349 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,000 But they felt that it felt like this about it. 350 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000 There's nothing they could do about it. 351 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,000 Who was that part name of Mr. Mollard? 352 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,000 Yes. 353 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:44,000 Were these voices that you heard, are these supposed to be derroed? 354 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,000 They were supposed to be derroed. 355 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,000 Derroed? 356 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,000 That's right. 357 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,000 The good people are derroes and the bad people are derroes. 358 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,000 That's right. 359 00:20:53,000 --> 00:21:00,000 Now, they said, derroes, this is during the early hours of the morning. 360 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,000 That's right. 361 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:05,000 When they talked to you in Richard Shaber's room, you were a guest. 362 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,000 They told you, they were discussing it among themselves and I overheard. 363 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,000 Well, they were not talking to you. 364 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:18,000 Well, where were they at the time that you heard these voices? 365 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:24,000 I had no idea of their location except that I heard the voices in Mr. Shaber's room. 366 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,000 And they did not know that you were listening? 367 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:32,000 Yes, they did because I interjected myself into the conversation. 368 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,000 And what did you say to them? 369 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,000 I said, what is this all about? 370 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,000 I was like an explanation. 371 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:43,000 And why would they want to explain this to you? 372 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,000 Well, they did want to. 373 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,000 The voice of the child, apparently, is a four-year-old child. 374 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,000 And they know it's not to him, he says, don't. 375 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:56,000 A four-year-old child made this statement. 376 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,000 Well, the voice sounded to be a four-year-old child. 377 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,000 But it's obvious that it must have been an older person. 378 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,000 Well, no, I don't think so. 379 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,000 The music of four-year-old child would use that language 380 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:18,000 or even know what the word meant is a matter which is being used or what's being used. 381 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,000 I think that this child knows. 382 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,000 Do you think there's the arrows and the arrows? 383 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,000 Not a thing that he was four years old. 384 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Yes, it might have been five, he might have been six. 385 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:35,000 It's the same thing from the tenor of the voice 386 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,000 that was pretty similar to the voice of an older four-year-old child. 387 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:45,000 The Mr. Palmer asked you, in other words, now that you've heard, you had this experience, 388 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:51,000 you've heard these voices, they told you something that happened four miles away from Shaver's home 389 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,000 and four miles down. 390 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,000 Yes. 391 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,000 Have you ever checked this to find out if this did happen? 392 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,000 I haven't. 393 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,000 I haven't been able to be speaking that deep. 394 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:07,000 I didn't know what directs it was, but I don't know how you would check it. 395 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,000 I asked them if it was true and they said yes. 396 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Well, now, I certainly don't want to discredit Mr. Shaver. 397 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,000 I've never had the pleasure of meeting a person. 398 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,000 I've never had the pleasure of meeting you, but we are on the air now 399 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:26,000 and I'm interviewing you and I know that our listeners automatically would want me to ask this question 400 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,000 so I'm forced to do it, sir. 401 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,000 Is it possible that Mr. Shaver was perpetrating a hoax on you? 402 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,000 I was perfectly aware of the fact that he might be. 403 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,000 That is one of the reasons I came. 404 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,000 That's why you went to his home in Pennsylvania. 405 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,000 Yes. 406 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:51,000 Well, I think that I rather insulted my host by what I did while I was there 407 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:57,000 because I didn't place thoroughly or hidden microphones and things like that. 408 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,000 I found absolutely nothing. 409 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:04,000 How I considered that Mr. Shaver might have been doing this himself 410 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:11,000 except I doubt that one man can imitate four voices simultaneously. 411 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,000 I doubt that too. 412 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,000 I'm sure it's impossible. 413 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:22,000 Mr. Palmer, you're not familiar with the way we handle these interviews up here 414 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,000 but I'm sitting there at a table and I have a group of people sitting around. 415 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,000 They all have headsets down and they're listening to both sides of the conversation. 416 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:40,000 In other words, my guests up here are hearing just what our listeners in 27 states are hearing this morning. 417 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:47,000 Now I have met his guests with me and Bob Matler and Ellery Lander 418 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,000 and Ellery would like to be able to talk with you for a few minutes. 419 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,000 I'll be very happy to talk with you. 420 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,000 All right, just one moment. 421 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:05,000 Let me remind our listeners that this is WOR Radio, your station in New York, 7th Escalade dial. 422 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,000 We're talking with Mr. Ray Palmer. 423 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:14,000 Ray Palmer is the editor and publisher of Flying Soffers from Other Worlds. 424 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,000 He is also publisher of Search Magazine. 425 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:27,000 He is the former editor of Amazing Stories and he has with him in Amherst, Wisconsin this morning. 426 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000 Ray Richard Shaver, rather, I'm sorry. 427 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:38,000 Richard Shaver is the author of the famous Shaver mysteries and we want to get as much information as possible. 428 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,000 I can readily appreciate the fact that possibly some of our listeners may be a little confused at this time 429 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,000 because the quality of this broadcast certainly is not top-to-this-morning, 430 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:54,000 but we've had a little difficulty as far as our connection is concerned. 431 00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:01,000 But we hope that you'll bear with us and listen because I think that this will be extremely interesting to all of our listeners 432 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:11,000 and I can assure you that this is the very first time that anybody has ever had the opportunity of interviewing Richard Shaver on radio or television. 433 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:17,000 This is the first time and we're very grateful to Ray Palmer who made this possible. 434 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,000 I'm going to have Elri Landier talk to you now, Ray, just a moment please. 435 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,000 Hello Ray Palmer. Yes, hello. 436 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,000 I've been to talk to you, I've looked forward to meeting you sometime. 437 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:37,000 Ray, I have something rather serious to ask you about the Shaver mystery. 438 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:46,000 And this concerns a novel by Lord Boerleitens called The Coming Race, 439 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:52,000 which was written somewhat about a little more than half a century ago, 440 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,000 in which there was a description of a miner who went down into a very deep shaft 441 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:07,000 and came across some huge caverns and canyons and found civilizations of people who had been living there 442 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,000 since I fled that preceded the business of the quest. 443 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:27,000 And the rumors that I have heard concerning this, this, the Shaver mystery were that Mr. Shaver practically listed the story out of Boerleitens' novel The Coming Race. 444 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,000 Do you have any way of repudiating such a rumor? 445 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:37,000 Well, I can't be repudiated except to say that I don't think he did. 446 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:46,000 Now, if these caverns still exist and other people through the centuries have had the same experiences as Mr. Shaver, 447 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:52,000 it is conceivable that Mr. Boerleitens are from whomever he got the story. 448 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,000 Mine had had a similar experience. 449 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,000 The existence of these stories doesn't mean that Richard listed them, 450 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:08,000 because I can point to dozens of other books on this very same subject. 451 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,000 There's a book called Out of Door, but remember, he could have listed it from that. 452 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,000 There's a book called O'Wisbie. He could have listed it from that. 453 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:28,000 You can go on, you can list thousands of instances of ancient legends, of the legends of the caverns in Hell and so on, 454 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:34,000 all of which you could say were something that Richard listed them from. 455 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:43,000 You can go on, you can list thousands of instances of ancient legends, of the legends of the caverns in Hell and so on, 456 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:49,000 all of which you could say were something that Richard listed them from. 457 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,000 Yes. 458 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:58,000 But to my mind, all of these things which we dug up later and continually are being up to date are, 459 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:05,000 what I'd say, a corroboration of his story rather than indications that he listed any specific books. 460 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,000 Well, that makes sense. I follow you there, Ray. 461 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:19,000 I wanted to ask you, what was the name of the energy that was used by the Deer Rose? 462 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,000 Can you refresh my memory on that? 463 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:28,000 Well, there's several energies. Maybe Richard himself can tell you more about the energy. 464 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,000 Yes. 465 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,000 You want to talk to him about this? He seems anxious to tell you. 466 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,000 Surely. 467 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,000 The main name for the energies in yours was Eulacra. 468 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,000 I suspect that our word, electric, came from that word, eulacra. 469 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,000 How do you, how do I spell that? 470 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,000 The U-L-E-T-R-A. 471 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:53,000 Eulacra. And you say that was something similar to electricity? 472 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,000 Well, same word. 473 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:02,000 The thing is that a magnetic flow that is not like our electric. 474 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,000 Yes. 475 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:08,000 It's more similar to the electric generated by the body cells. 476 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:12,000 You mean something, a living organic electricity? 477 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,000 That's right. 478 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:18,000 And almost all of them, it's namely without word, with some variation of that current, 479 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:23,000 because it is not helping to use anything else. 480 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:28,000 Richard, there is something I think you can enlighten me about. 481 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:35,000 Within the confines of propriety, if you understand what I mean by that, 482 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:40,000 I recall in one account of the life underground, 483 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:50,000 there was a means by which a human being could be dipped into a large, large tank of a certain kind of fluid, 484 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:55,000 which had certain vibrations running through this fluid. 485 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:01,000 And this was used occasionally to test a couple who were concatenating marriage 486 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,000 to see whether their vibrations were simultaneous. 487 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,000 Is that the same type of energy you were referring to? 488 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,000 Has that been used by the energy? 489 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,000 Well, that particular incident was largely invention. 490 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,000 I don't know too much about it. 491 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:25,000 You must remember, I've had an awful bunch of information run through my head, 492 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,000 and I couldn't retain all of it. 493 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,000 And some pictures like that were very clear in my mind, 494 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,000 but I didn't really understand what they meant. 495 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,000 And it's very hard to follow others thought because it's much superior. 496 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Let's see, Richard, can you tell the listeners what type of weapons the Dero's used? 497 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,000 Have a look. 498 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,000 Yes, I don't recall. 499 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:56,000 Do they have any specific type of weapon that they used in attacking the world? 500 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,000 I don't see when there was a struggle between the fluid and the bad Dero's. 501 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:08,000 Well, their main weapon is the superposition of a destructive energy apartment. 502 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,000 There's a common conductive ray called the penetrate. 503 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,000 Is it used in mechanical devices for that? 504 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,000 Oh yes. 505 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,000 It's something that would be something like a joiner. 506 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:24,000 It looks like a big bad spring if you must know. 507 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,000 It looks like a big bad spring. 508 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,000 That's right. 509 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,000 Does that give the use of the force as well? 510 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,000 No, no weapon uses the use of the force. 511 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,000 The use of the force is beneficial. 512 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,000 I see. 513 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,000 I'm trying to keep this straight. 514 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,000 I don't want to get this material confused. 515 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,000 All that work was a mess of complex compared to our electric. 516 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,000 And then they knew so much more about it. 517 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,000 It's very hard to tell you in a short word. 518 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,000 It would take you weeks to go over it. 519 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:05,000 Another question, Richard, is there any way in which we can know whether they are speaking 520 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,000 or creating any further cameras underground at the present time? 521 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,000 They're very, very stripping them. 522 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:13,000 I don't understand. 523 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,000 Can you explain that? 524 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,000 Making out. 525 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,000 I'm getting stripping and selling them. 526 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,000 They are removing the cameras, removing the interiors. 527 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,000 Do you mean they are deserting the interiors? 528 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,000 Yes, they are. 529 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,000 They are stripping them out of space. 530 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,000 I didn't follow that. 531 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:40,000 In other words, the deer rows are in effect deserting the underground places where they have been living in. 532 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,000 Well, it's an ancient train. 533 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,000 It's gone on for about a thousand years. 534 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,000 Yes, space is rude and earth. 535 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,000 We don't know it. 536 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,000 It's the whole theme of it. 537 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,000 Richard, I want to ask you this. 538 00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:03,000 You know, our scientists today in research and in the development of atomic weapons and in spacecraft 539 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:14,000 are making some very important discoveries and assuming that your account is accurate and is true. 540 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:24,000 Assuming that it is true, would any of the discoveries that our scientists are making today in any way be effect to the deer rows? 541 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,000 Or are they more powerful than we are? 542 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,000 I don't think we could think anything that would upset them. 543 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,000 No, they're not particularly worried. 544 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:43,000 In other words, we can go right ahead with our developments and they won't try to stop us or interfere with what we are about. 545 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,000 I think we can make an analyst. 546 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,000 What about this kidnapping business that I recall? 547 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,000 Have they been kidnapping any American citizens recently? 548 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,000 Well, I don't have specific knowledge. 549 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,000 I only know that a lot of them are slaves. 550 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,000 But I don't know how long it's been there. 551 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,000 Do you have any idea about how many people are down there and slaves? 552 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,000 No, I wouldn't know that. 553 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,000 Because you said there are a lot. 554 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:17,000 Well, in every scene you see there's a whole background of slaves going up there. 555 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,000 The slaves, would they beat half of the population down below? 556 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,000 More than that. 557 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,000 More than that? 558 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,000 Is that true? 559 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,000 I would say about 10 to 1. 560 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:34,000 Really? How do they replenish them? Do they keep kidnapping people all the time? 561 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,000 Well, I don't know. 562 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:43,000 I mean, I understand that in the ancient times slaves would produce children in offspring 563 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,000 which the owners would have in future slaves. 564 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:52,000 And is it possible that the derailers would do that sort of thing with American citizens? 565 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,000 Well, I think the FBI has some excuse on that. 566 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:01,000 Would you repeat that, Richard? I didn't quite get to the tie. 567 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:06,000 I mean, when the FBI ties an investigative agent, the agents disappear. 568 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:11,000 You mean there are FBI agents that have been kidnapped and taken to the room? 569 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,000 They wouldn't. 570 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,000 Well, how can that be possible? 571 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,000 That's not clear to that support. 572 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,000 Alright. 573 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:26,000 Can I talk to Ray Pond for a moment, Richard? 574 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,000 Yes. 575 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,000 Hello. 576 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,000 Very? 577 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,000 Hello, Ray. 578 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,000 This is Long John again. 579 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,000 Ray, we don't want to get away from the shaver mysteries, 580 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:41,000 but I want to take just a moment to ask you about a couple of things as far as flying saucers are concerned. 581 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,000 Alright. 582 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:48,000 Ray, in your magazine Flying Saucers from Other Worlds, 583 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,000 you have in the May edition, 584 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,000 you have the Kenneth Arnold out of print book The Coming of the Saucers, 585 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,000 and you have a number of other interesting articles. 586 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,000 Yes. 587 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,000 However, you don't have in the current edition anything about Buck Nelson, 588 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:11,000 but there is an ad about Buck Nelson's brochure that he's selling. 589 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,000 I would like to ask you this question, Ray Palmer. 590 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,000 Yes. 591 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,000 Do you think that the Ray, is that the Buck Nelson story, is a true story? 592 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,000 I haven't the slightest idea. 593 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,000 You know nothing about that story. 594 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:31,000 I feel that the man was dealt on just me with by the eight people in his state, 595 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:37,000 and I ran his ad because I thought that he could sell a few books he might earn a living. 596 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,000 Yes, well that was, I was just wondering if you had any opinions on him. 597 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,000 I was wondering if you had any opinions at all, Ray Palmer, 598 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:52,000 on any of the so-called contact stories, like the advance easy Howard Mentor stories. 599 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,000 Very definitely. 600 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,000 Would you care to give us those opinions? 601 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:57,000 Yes, I think I can. 602 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,000 On what particular one? 603 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,000 Let's say a density. 604 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:11,000 First, basically, I would say that most of the personal sighting and contact stories are either fiction, 605 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,000 or they are misinterpretation. 606 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,000 Fiction or misinterpretation. 607 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:22,000 I think a great many of them would probably come under the heading of psychic math, 608 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,000 as big L.B. Landlutie for instance. 609 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:33,000 He makes no claim that this thing is literally physically a true thing. 610 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:38,000 He admits that it all happened to him while he was unconscious for a week, 611 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,000 and all of the things that happened to him, he says, are of psychic nature. 612 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,000 Being at least honest and at least respect. 613 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,000 His adventures are very similar to Richard's, 614 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:57,000 in that he saw these people and heard the voices and went through certain experiences 615 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,000 which were very hard for him to determine in relation to reality. 616 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:09,000 Now, Chamber's theory would explain what happened to L.B. Landlutie. 617 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:18,000 The very basis of psychic phenomena according to Richard is the average people's clever way of covering up 618 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:25,000 some of the things that we in a space will be observed, but otherwise give away their existence. 619 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,000 But if we call it the closed, naturally we're going to dismiss it, 620 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,000 and nobody's going to take a whole four mile deep in the arts to find the closed. 621 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,000 Right. 622 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,000 Well, I take care of Mr. Landlutie. 623 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:43,000 Now, I have a statement here which I think will raise quite a fuss 624 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:50,000 among the psychic fans and the buying sauce fans, psychic fans, 625 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:55,000 and particularly among the followers of George Zansky. 626 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,000 I don't mean to say that George Zansky is a liar. 627 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:07,000 I respect the man. I think that what he says in his book has a very good human message, 628 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,000 and certainly the world would be a better place to live in if people lived the way he is just a new day. 629 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,000 We should. 630 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:18,000 But here is a fact about Mr. Zansky, but just generally known, 631 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,000 which I haven't publicized since we've been extensive, 632 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:29,000 for reasons that I don't believe it would do any good to really attack him. 633 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,000 So I'm not attacking him since I wanted to win the army. 634 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:34,000 Right. 635 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:41,000 But when I was the editor of a making story back in about 1939 or 40, 636 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:47,000 somewhere in the heart, very big as to the day, but it was much before applying software, 637 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,000 I received a manuscript from George Zansky. 638 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,000 He thought it ought to be published in amazing stories. 639 00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,000 While I read it, it was the story of a state that came to Earth, 640 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,000 and the pilot of the spaceship was either stuck, 641 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:08,000 and the message was a message that he could go, 642 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,000 and now we heard people ought to get along. 643 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,000 I disagreed with Mr. Zansky, but I am sitting by him, 644 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,000 and I told him so, and I regretfully rejected the manuscript. 645 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,000 He said I enjoyed reading it personally and so on. 646 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,000 I agree with you. 647 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:29,000 Now, Mr. Zansky's first book is that same manuscript. 648 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:34,000 The only things that were made is that from a spaceship to a flying saucer, 649 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,000 and from Jesus Christ to a vanodian. 650 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,000 Now, I know this is a passing statement, 651 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,000 but I don't know whether the Zansky will be mad or not. 652 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,000 But that is the fact. 653 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:52,000 Well, this certainly is a starling statement, 654 00:41:52,000 --> 00:42:00,000 and I agree with you it's certainly something that would be best to remain unpublished, 655 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,000 a thing like that. 656 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,000 It's a rather unfortunate thing. 657 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,000 I wonder if we can get away from Mr. Zansky, and... 658 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,000 Some of you have listened to Sir Iconic immediately to say, 659 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,000 well, Ray Bobby, you're not very honest, 660 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,000 because you published a book by Williamson and Plansson and Plansson. 661 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,000 Yes, well, I think with just one moment, 662 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,000 I want to take care of a stating break. 663 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,000 Just one moment, please. 664 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,000 I'm programmed right off, and would like to talk with you for a couple of minutes 665 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,000 about the behavior mysteries. 666 00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,000 Yes. 667 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,000 Just one moment, please. 668 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,000 Paul, how do you do? 669 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:36,000 How are you, sir? 670 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,000 I'm very fine. 671 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,000 How are you? 672 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,000 Well, loosely to your details that you mentioned tonight, 673 00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,000 the sort of a great many questions I wanted to ask you. 674 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:53,000 Now, I take it you've known from Richard Shaver about the existence of Daros 675 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,000 and Daros for approximately 15 years. 676 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,000 Well, it's 1924. 677 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,000 And the Daros are the ones who want to do it's harm, 678 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,000 and the Daros are the ones who want to work with people. 679 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,000 Well, the Daros don't particularly want to do it's harm. 680 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,000 They just want their pastimes to be devilish, 681 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:16,000 and because of the behavior they have, they are able to do it. 682 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:23,000 Now, the Daros are also people who they want to keep their existence 683 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,000 not known from us, don't they? 684 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,000 Yes, they do. 685 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,000 And that you said they've recently gone into such devilish stunts 686 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,000 as tearing a woman into quarters? 687 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,000 It started in 1946. 688 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:43,000 The thing that immediately springs to my mind is how has they allowed you and Richard Shaver 689 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:48,000 to go on communicating to the world about their existence for 15 years 690 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,000 without doing you some harm? 691 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:56,000 Well, here we can get into an area where I can say I'm a startling again, 692 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,000 but they haven't. 693 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,000 Do you know of no reason for this? 694 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,000 No, I don't mean that they have let us go on. 695 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,000 Well, you mean they have tried to harm you? 696 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,000 It has been a very great measure. 697 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:14,000 In other words, your life in Richard Shaver's life may very well be in danger. 698 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:20,000 Well, I'd say that anything is unimportant if we are in their scene of things. 699 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,000 It's dangerous. 700 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:28,000 Well, I think we're missing Shaver mentioned that there may be at least 200 Daros listening 701 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,000 to our conversation tonight. 702 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,000 I mean, certainly the headquarters are getting the messages that you're broadcasting about their existence, 703 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,000 which I don't know. 704 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,000 They probably wouldn't like it all. 705 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,000 They've actually done you and Mr. Shaver harm. 706 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,000 Would you care to go into what kind of harm they've done to you? 707 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,000 Well, I can give you a specific example. 708 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:53,000 Now, this is probably the best example I can give you, is what happens to me in 1950. 709 00:44:53,000 --> 00:45:01,000 Now, at that time, we were prepared to publish a great many of the things that I had in my files 710 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,000 from Richard's cell, which had never been published. 711 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,000 This is a great massive material. 712 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,000 It still has that quality. 713 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,000 I consider it to be very good evidence. 714 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:17,000 At that time, I had an accident in which my spinal cord was threatened and I suffered paralysis 715 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,000 and I was laid down. 716 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:26,000 There's some of the coverage in that, but you say that my efficiency is going to be reduced by 50%. 717 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,000 You're going to show this... 718 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,000 Let me explain how this happened. 719 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:37,000 I had been visiting Mr. Shaver that day with some girls back in Illinois. 720 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,000 He arrived on about 7.30 p.m. and turned out that it's in the clouds early 721 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,000 and my base was full of mist and dead. 722 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,000 I cleaned up the base and I had finished cleaning the base 723 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,000 and I was standing there admiring my hands. 724 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,000 My wife was sitting on the cellar steps also, smiling at me. 725 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,000 All the lights in the base were on. 726 00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:04,000 And I suddenly, up here, he slipped, fell over backwards and struck my back on the floor 727 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,000 and was immediately paralyzed. 728 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:13,000 Now, it seemed to me that I was picked up, thrown down. 729 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,000 So someone actually treated them? 730 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,000 I was picked up and the horizontal thing was lifted high enough 731 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,000 so that I was within 60 inches of the ceiling, with an 8 foot ceiling. 732 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,000 Where you were thrown into the air? 733 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,000 I was lifted up and then thrown down, very hard. 734 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:35,000 Now, I was unable to get my arms underneath me to break my fall. 735 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,000 My arms were held out 50 inches in front of the base 736 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,000 but I could not get them underneath me. 737 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:44,000 I did land flat on my back in the worst possible position for me being on the back. 738 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,000 And you were convinced that they were zeroes? 739 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,000 Well, no, I was not convinced of anything. 740 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:55,000 I was perfectly conscious that the moment of impact, or two seconds thereafter, 741 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,000 I just think we heard a word. 742 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:03,000 Now, I can't believe I'm here because it was one of those words we can't say on the air. 743 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,000 But in fact, in my life, it was not my life, it was not myself. 744 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:13,000 My life would make me run through the fall to get to the system. 745 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:16,000 While I was down there, I had time to think about it. 746 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:22,000 And I wondered about this voice that I heard and I felt that somebody had slipped up. 747 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,000 Let it say that somebody who was on guard 748 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:33,000 should have protected me from this momentary opportunity to pick me up and throw me down to be the clear. 749 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:41,000 And he uttered the customary expectations, that's okay, and I expected to make, that's his name. 750 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,000 I was certainly dismayed. 751 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:48,000 As the hours passed in the hospital, and I kept thinking about this, 752 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,000 it grew more and more in my mind that it was just the next, I had symptoms falling, 753 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,000 and all the other things were hallucinating. 754 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:58,000 You had hallucinations? 755 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,000 But several days later, my wife was talking to me in the hospital, 756 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,000 and she said, you know, it was a funny thing, but it seemed to me as though he were picked up 757 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,000 and thrown down very hard. 758 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,000 I had not mentioned a word before of this. 759 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,000 I felt that was almost certain of what I had been picked up. 760 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:21,000 It wasn't the first time that I had experienced this kind of energy. 761 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:27,000 I can remember an instance where I woke up and found myself floating in the air. 762 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:32,000 And it was several minutes before I could reach the surface of the city. 763 00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:37,000 In other words, the group of sterols were trying to catch you, 764 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,000 or group of sterols were trying to get you. 765 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,000 That sounds rather even testing, doesn't it? 766 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,000 But this may well be true. 767 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,000 Ray, can you hold it for just a moment please? 768 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,000 Hello, Ray? 769 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,000 Yes. 770 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,000 Just hold it for a moment please. 771 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,000 We're Traver. 772 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,000 They're rather than Amherst, Wisconsin. 773 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:05,000 This is the first time that people have had the opportunity of hearing Richard Shaver, 774 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:11,000 and we're finding out as much as possible about the sterols and the sterols. 775 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:16,000 And I'd like to take just a moment to talk about one of our sponsors. 776 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,000 Both of these gentlemen, the route in Amherst, Wisconsin, 777 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:27,000 we have found from time to time that their voices faded out a little bit, 778 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:32,000 but if you stick with us, I think we'll have a very interesting discussion. 779 00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:38,000 This is the only way we can talk to these two gentlemen is by telephone. 780 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:44,000 And I have with me at the studio this morning Bob Matler, Dave Fields, 781 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:48,000 Ben Isquith, and Ellery Lanier. 782 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:54,000 Ellery Lanier is the fact editor of Fantastic Science Fiction. 783 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:55,000 Hello, Ray? 784 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:56,000 Yes. 785 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,000 Just one moment. Ben wants to continue this conversation a little more with you. 786 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,000 Just one moment please. 787 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:03,000 Palmer? 788 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,000 Yes. 789 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:14,000 So, before I answer, it seems that a bunch of sterols are actually trying to get to you. 790 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:19,000 Well, and a bunch of sterols are finding them to tend to you. 791 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,000 It would seem so. 792 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:28,000 I'd like to explain something right here which may be of interest to you and especially to Long John. 793 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:34,000 You know, saying things like this is like inviting a bunch of psychiatrists to drop in on you 794 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,000 and prove that you're insane and wouldn't be difficult to do. 795 00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:44,000 So, when I make these statements to you now, it is out of respect to Long John 796 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,000 because I feel that he is one of the most honest reporters down here. 797 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,000 And when he asks me for the truth, I say, well, maybe I ought to give it to him. 798 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,000 These things are being told in all sincerity to wisdom knowledge 799 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:02,000 because I know many of your readers or listeners or many of the people concerned with this thing 800 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:06,000 are going to come out of his convince that I am actually insane. 801 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:12,000 I'm not about to hit him, but I'm certainly here to be puzzled. 802 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:19,000 Mr. Schabel mentioned something before about the arrows on shipping 803 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:25,000 or putting that out of space by means of sources I think are the requests anyway referred to 804 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,000 when the Schaefer articles were next. 805 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:32,000 Why are they making a mad accident this state? 806 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:37,000 Well, I don't believe that you are Mr. Schabel too. 807 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,000 I don't think the Gerald or the Gerald are making any accidents. 808 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,000 I think they are helpless to make any such an accident. 809 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,000 You mean you think they are actually bound with the regions where they live? 810 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:54,000 They not only bound, but many of them are trying to defend themselves 811 00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:00,000 losing these positions and at times a very heated battle will go on 812 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:05,000 between the invaders from space were cutting this stuff away 813 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,000 and the invaders are helping with the panic. 814 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:12,000 The invaders know the existence of the earth. 815 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:16,000 The earth is known all through space as the Great Tomb. 816 00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:22,000 That is, it is a planet where mass civilizations exist in the future, here in the past 817 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:29,000 and where all these abandoned machinery which are almost imperishable in nature 818 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,000 are still in good condition and those that are not in good condition 819 00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,000 are being valuable and curio. 820 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:41,000 Are they taking any of the machinery from the surface of the earth? 821 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,000 I don't think they would consider the surface machinery of any value. 822 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,000 In other words, the Gerald machinery is not much more greater. 823 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,000 Yes, I have my clients agree with them and I think of my washbasin 824 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,000 and there is other equipment. 825 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,000 In other words, you say that we actually do have the earth 826 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,000 and it has been instated by people from outer space. 827 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,000 Do you know where they come from? 828 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,000 I have to say where they come from because... 829 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,000 I mean, is it in our solar system? 830 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:11,000 What? 831 00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:13,000 Is it in our solar system? 832 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:17,000 I think it is not. I think it is very close to that. 833 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,000 Is it in other galaxies? 834 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,000 It is possible. 835 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:28,000 I am inclined to think too that it may even be from what we may strategically term another dimension. 836 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,000 Well, not a force, but rather say a sort of parallel universe. 837 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,000 In other words, a co-existing universe. 838 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,000 They never do not agree with me at all. 839 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,000 Oh, so the distance you are on this... 840 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,000 I am only using your theory of mine. 841 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:47,000 I was wondering about the point that Mr. Shaven went into that sometimes the daryls come up to the surface 842 00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,000 and one of their reasons was the forage for food. 843 00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,000 Yes. 844 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:58,000 Do these things which seem to be extremely manel, but extremely powerful actually need food? 845 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,000 I mean, they can't matter if it is their own or do they need food? 846 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,000 Well, you must understand the picture down there. 847 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:10,000 There are the powerful ones where the rulers would slave all the rest 848 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,000 and would deny them all of the wonderful things which they keep themselves. 849 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,000 Who is a daryl in daryls? 850 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,000 Yes. 851 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:22,000 So the daryls must seek out and even the forage for such things as firewood. 852 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,000 Seek out of firewood? 853 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,000 Yes. 854 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:30,000 To be in a civilization of fantastic machinery, they actually need firewood? 855 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:37,000 Well, let us compare it with the feudal lords who lived in the inhabitants in their castles 856 00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:40,000 whereas their slaves just outside the moat, 857 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:45,000 it has the forage for rurical branches and things like that 858 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,000 and animal dung and so on to burn the people off. 859 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:54,000 So four miles underneath the surface of the earth, you actually need firewood to keep warm? 860 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,000 Well, let us compare it. 861 00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,000 Four miles is not a specific distance. 862 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:04,000 I only mentioned that because that is the distance that was meant to move in the temperate space. 863 00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,000 Well, I mean, four miles go greater, right? 864 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,000 Well, four miles are less too. 865 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:14,000 You mentioned before about your general belief in the contact stories 866 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:18,000 although you do believe that the earth has invaded. 867 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:24,000 Well, I think these contact stories largely are deliberate projections 868 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:28,000 which are designed to keep us beautiful. 869 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,000 So they were psychic manifestations, right? 870 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,000 Well, what is a psychic manifestation? 871 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:38,000 The thing I wanted to ask you, I imagine you have, I want to say 872 00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:46,000 and you have gone over and actually disappointed the shape of the trees 873 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:52,000 and the voices you have heard and Richard Shaven has heard my psychic manifestations. 874 00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:56,000 You have to decide whether the shabery is right 875 00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:00,000 and the cavern exists and all these things that we see, 876 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:07,000 ghost and older guys and all the serious happenings that we call psychic phenomena 877 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:15,000 are not just the cavern people using their wonderful machines to produce these illusions. 878 00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,000 To rate, I could learn like this for weeks, 879 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:22,000 but I know that you've been up all day and you had a rather busy day 880 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,000 and I think we'll have to wrap it up. 881 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:30,000 I want to say thanks to you and to Richard Shaven for joining us this morning 882 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:37,000 and I sincerely hope that if you do have the opportunity of coming into New York 883 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:42,000 that you certainly know that you'll be more than welcome to sit under these microphones 884 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:46,000 and tell us some of these interesting stories and theories that you have. 885 00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,000 That's definitely a really hot catch. 886 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,000 I realize that on a program this type of psychic arc mode 887 00:56:54,000 --> 00:57:02,000 is possible only to be sensational and took a deep and touch on history of the past 888 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:07,000 and perhaps leave everybody more confused than what they said. 889 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:11,000 Well, maybe sometimes in the near future we'll talk to you on the phone again. 890 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,000 Well, we'd be happy to do this anytime you want to do. 891 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:20,000 Alright, thank you very, very much and extend my thanks to Richard Shaven too. 892 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,000 I will then. Thank you very much. 893 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:29,000 Thank you for listening to it and for a complete list of tapes about UFOs and related subjects. 894 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:41,000 Also books about UFOs, right to Gray Barker, Box 2228, Harksburg, West Virginia, 26301. 895 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,000 Thank you very much again for listening and good night.